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RSS > 3-point clip vs 3-point cap

doveman	#31 26/06/2013 - 22h52 Top
Class : Habitué Posts : 106 Registered on : 09/05/2012 Off line	dewey1 @ 26/06/2013 - 20h26 a dit: Is this with the hat or clip setup? What are you using for the HOTAS or game controller? I have a button programmed for Tracker Center and Tracker Smoothing which helps out for Tracker in game control. A very good program for HOTAS or game control programming is called PGP or Pinnacle Game Profiler. I use this program on my F710 gamepad and my SRW-1 steering wheel. It gives you a lot of commands available that you cannot get on standard OEM software. I have one button dedicated to in game Freetrack control. I highly recommend it for the ultimate game controller software. http://pinnaclegameprofiler.com/features It's with my hat/headphone setup. I have a Thrustmaster Hotas X and use Xpadder to assign keys to it but that's not really important at the moment, as I can use the FT Hotkeys with my keyboard for testing. The problem is I can't seem to look around the cockpit normally as it's reversing the Yaw when I'm looking down, which must be either a problem with the LED setup or the profile in FT.
doveman	#32 01/08/2013 - 03h27 Top
Class : Habitué Posts : 106 Registered on : 09/05/2012 Off line	I made a video as I thought that would illustrate the problems I'm having better than I can explain them http://youtu.be/hTwVtCMt9f8 As you can see, when turning left it's all over the place and goes down as much as it does left. After doing some straight L/R turns, I tried looking L/R whilst my head was tilted down, which it has even more difficulty with. It's true the tracking isn't perfect and I might need to remove the IR filter from inside my PS3 Eye (currently using one layer of R/G/B plastic plus one extra blue layer to block out some remaining sunlight that was still getting through) but even when the three green lights stay solid I have this problem, so I think the tracking, particularly with the top LED, is a separate issue. At about 01:23 I disabled all axis except Yaw and Pitch which didn't really help much and still shows the same issues when turning left and even more so when looking down whilst turning L/R.
Steph	#33 01/08/2013 - 12h41 Top
Class : Moderator Posts : 656 Registered on : 16/11/2007 Off line	Hi, please make screens of your Freetrack profile page, curves, Model and cam settings and put them in here. I'm nearly sure there is a problem in the dimensions and position settings.
Stormrider	#34 01/08/2013 - 14h51 Top
Class : Légende du Forum Posts : 466 Registered on : 02/01/2013 Off line	Hi doveman, I also think you have your ps3-eye zoomed in, or did you make bigger model? When I compare your movie to my situation mine dots are more closer to each other when I sit at 1 metre distance of my camera.
doveman	#35 01/08/2013 - 20h25 Top
Class : Habitué Posts : 106 Registered on : 09/05/2012 Off line	Steph @ 01/08/2013 - 10h41 a dit: Hi, please make screens of your Freetrack profile page, curves, Model and cam settings and put them in here. I'm nearly sure there is a problem in the dimensions and position settings. Hi, Here you go. Camera settings in the video were gain and exposure 100%, White Balance R, G, B sliders 50%. Bear in mind, the second half of the video was done with everything except Yaw and Pitch disabled in Global. Profile Curves (Rotation) Curves (Translation) Model
doveman	#36 01/08/2013 - 20h26 Top
Class : Habitué Posts : 106 Registered on : 09/05/2012 Off line	Stormrider @ 01/08/2013 - 12h51 a dit: Hi doveman, I also think you have your ps3-eye zoomed in, or did you make bigger model? When I compare your movie to my situation mine dots are more closer to each other when I sit at 1 metre distance of my camera. Hi, yeah it seems I did have it zoomed. Is that not recommended? I thought I read that it was somewhere but I could be wrong! EDIT: Good call! It's much better with it zoomed out However, it still moves in the X and Z axis when Yawing, so Yaw +48 gives X -130 and Z +140 and Yaw -48 gives X +180 and Z +200 (these values tend to change and be higher or lower on each test). I tried reducing the Profile Sensitivity for those Axis from 1.5 to 1.0 but that hasn't made much, if any, difference. Edited by doveman on 01/08/2013 at 22h00.
doveman	#37 03/08/2013 - 14h23 Top
Class : Habitué Posts : 106 Registered on : 09/05/2012 Off line	Hmm, seems I still need some help with this! It was working OK as I said but then I tried it again later and turning right was pitching up quite severely, making it impossible to use in-game. I don't understand why as I hadn't changed anything (obviously the exact position of my headphones on my head is hard to keep the same but I tried tilting them forwards and back a bit with no change). Testing again this afternoon, I can turn left in FTNoIR for +90 Yaw with no or minimal Pitch, turning right for -60 Yaw (which is about as far as it will track) I get -20 Pitch and also +40 Z. In Freetrack turning left for +90 Yaw gives me -10 Pitch, -400 Z, +120 Y and +60 Z, whilst turning right for -60 Yaw gives me -30 Pitch, +380 Z, +250 Y and +170 Z. I'm using the same model settings in both programs, so I guess something else needs tweaking in Freetrack to reduce the unwanted movements. I'd rather use FreeTrack for now, for the relative translation and dynamic smoothing. Another problem I have, not software related I don't think, is that when turning right it often has trouble keeping track of the top LED and when it loses tracking it causes the view in game to briefly show a different direction to where I'm looking (i.e. in DCS World I can be looking towards my six and it will flicker between that and the forward dash view briefly, like 0.25s. Likewise I have to be careful not to tilt my head back/up too far or else it loses the top LED but as long as I make sure my headset is on so that the LED is straight on with the camera, it generally gives me enough room to tilt my head as much as is needed in-game, so that's not a big deal, although looking up and right can still be a problem. It seems all three dots get weaker when I turn right for some reason. Perhaps this is normal and I just need to remove the IR filter from my PS3 Eye so that the dots start stronger and it doesn't matter when they get weaker?
doveman	#38 03/08/2013 - 15h15 Top
Class : Habitué Posts : 106 Registered on : 09/05/2012 Off line	I tested with my clip again and that's pretty solid for yawing and doesn't generate unwanted pitcfh. For turning left for +80 Yaw, I get +110 X, +25 Y and -14 Z and turning right for -90 Yaw I get +120 X, -31 Y and 10 Z, which is obviously much better than with the cap-style arrangement although I think the X movement on Yawing probably should be lower. I can pitch up OK, albeit with a tendency to yaw to the left a bit but I can't pitch down as the middle (R) LED disappears from the camera's view when I do. It's not just that it's losing tracking, as if I use CL-Eye test I can see it's disappearing from view. I improved it a bit by moving the camera to the right, so that it's in-line with the clip but it still happens, like pitching down my head 1 degree but that comes back into view as I pitch it down further. Turning right with my head pitched down likewise hides the LED from view. Partly this seems because the clip doesn't present the LEDs all in a straight vertical line but that just what happens with a straight clip mounted on my headphones. I'd have to make a curved clip to counteract this and I've not seen anyone else do this, so I don't think that's the answer. This problem with the clip is one of the reasons I moved to a cap-style arrangement and I do need to work out the problems with both as even if I decide to use a clip, I need to build a cap for someone else.
Steph	#39 03/08/2013 - 16h28 Top
Class : Moderator Posts : 656 Registered on : 16/11/2007 Off line	Setup your cam like this: As you can see, the LEDs are not aligned exactly when I center my head, although the clip is well straight. That doesn't matter at all. Set your cam resolution on 320x240 and zoom to get approximately the same dimensions like above in the cam-window. The cam has to be in line with the clip. Don't forget to set up the dimensions and positions. Mines are like this: Put in yours. Go on with this settings: (Do not touch global settings, only profil-settings) and curves: With this settings you can turn up to 180° with stable view on any positions. You need to accustom for the sensitivity of tracking. When you lose tracking with the sfh485 that means that you largely turn your head over +-30° which is not necessary. Do not turn your straight view further than 10cm out of the screen otherwise it gets uncomfortable for your eyes. Thus the LEDs wont overlap either, and you don't lose tracking. It takes a while to get a real good ingame precision, just a question of habituation. You can turn off translations in the first time, making it easier in the beginning. Edited by Steph on 03/08/2013 at 16h38.
doveman	#40 11/08/2013 - 14h05 Top
Class : Habitué Posts : 106 Registered on : 09/05/2012 Off line	Thanks Steph. I'm going to make a sturdier clip and attach it differently to my headphones so it sits straighter and then I'll use your settings and hopefully it will be OK Once I've done that, perhaps we can look at why my cap-style arrangement isn't working. I thought that would be easier than the clip as the LEDs are all fixed well in place and point straight at the camera but I must have something wrong for it to be having problems. I could move the two side LEDs in about 15mm by attaching them to the inside, rather than the outside, of the headband. The other things I could do is move them up the headband, whilst keeping them on the outside otherwise they'd touch my head which would reduce the vertical distance from the top (R) point but I don't know if that would be likely to help or I could also move them backwards, so that they're further away from the cam and nearer to the R point in that direction.
Spitzfiebig	#41 12/08/2013 - 14h10 Top
Class : Apprenti Posts : 5 Registered on : 09/08/2013 Off line	Steph @ 03/08/2013 - 16h28 a dit: Setup your cam like this: Don't forget to set up the dimensions and positions. Mines are like this: An den Einstellungen für die Modell-Position scheitere ich. Habe den 3 Point-Clip genau nach dem Standardmass gebaut wie auf deinem Bild. Der Hängt mit einem Ring an meinem linken Ohr (spiele ohne Headset). Abstand zum Kopf beträgt ca. 2-3 mm. Die mittlere Diode ist genau auf Höhe der Ohr-Mitte und ca. 3 cm davor. Aber was ich einstellen muss ist mir total unklar. Muss ich jetzt von Kopfmitte nach aussen zur mittleren LED messen? Darfst mir gerne die Maße für die Einstellungen mitteilen :-) Ich sage schon mal Danke für deine Hilfe. Gruss Heinz Sorry for another Users, my English is to bad. I must write in German Edited by Spitzfiebig on 13/08/2013 at 20h49.
Stormrider	#42 14/08/2013 - 17h00 Top
Class : Légende du Forum Posts : 466 Registered on : 02/01/2013 Off line	hi Spitzfiebig, does this answers you question? This image comes out a reply Steph once gave. My german writing is probably as bad as your english.
Spitzfiebig	#43 15/08/2013 - 09h09 Top
Class : Apprenti Posts : 5 Registered on : 09/08/2013 Off line	Hallo Stormrider, yes all my Question are answers. Thank you for this brillant Picture. Greet Spitzfiebig. Edited by Spitzfiebig on 15/08/2013 at 15h18.
Stormrider	#44 15/08/2013 - 14h06 Top
Class : Légende du Forum Posts : 466 Registered on : 02/01/2013 Off line	Hi Spitzfiebig, for that picture you have to give Steph the credits.I just remembered that someone asked the same and he replyed to it.I just needed to search.
doveman	#45 15/09/2013 - 14h37 Top
Class : Habitué Posts : 106 Registered on : 09/05/2012 Off line	Thanks Steph. I built a new clip to your dimensions (still from cardboard to test) and set it up as per your screenshots and it's tracking well now. However, it seems overly sensitive in both DCS World and Arma and rotates the view right to the back of the plane and past there so that it rotates over 180 degrees with quite small movements of my head, so how can I tone it down and make it only turn about 120 degrees left or right?

doveman

#31 26/06/2013 - 22h52

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dewey1 @ 26/06/2013 - 20h26 a dit:
Is this with the hat or clip setup?

What are you using for the HOTAS or game controller?
I have a button programmed for Tracker Center and Tracker Smoothing which helps out for Tracker in game control.

A very good program for HOTAS or game control programming is called PGP or Pinnacle Game Profiler. I use this program on my F710 gamepad and my SRW-1 steering wheel. It gives you a lot of commands available that you cannot get on standard OEM software. I have one button dedicated to in game Freetrack control.
I highly recommend it for the ultimate game controller software.

http://pinnaclegameprofiler.com/features

It's with my hat/headphone setup.

I have a Thrustmaster Hotas X and use Xpadder to assign keys to it but that's not really important at the moment, as I can use the FT Hotkeys with my keyboard for testing.

The problem is I can't seem to look around the cockpit normally as it's reversing the Yaw when I'm looking down, which must be either a problem with the LED setup or the profile in FT.

doveman

#32 01/08/2013 - 03h27

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I made a video as I thought that would illustrate the problems I'm having better than I can explain them

http://youtu.be/hTwVtCMt9f8

As you can see, when turning left it's all over the place and goes down as much as it does left. After doing some straight L/R turns, I tried looking L/R whilst my head was tilted down, which it has even more difficulty with.

It's true the tracking isn't perfect and I might need to remove the IR filter from inside my PS3 Eye (currently using one layer of R/G/B plastic plus one extra blue layer to block out some remaining sunlight that was still getting through) but even when the three green lights stay solid I have this problem, so I think the tracking, particularly with the top LED, is a separate issue.

At about 01:23 I disabled all axis except Yaw and Pitch which didn't really help much and still shows the same issues when turning left and even more so when looking down whilst turning L/R.

Steph

#33 01/08/2013 - 12h41

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Hi,

please make screens of your Freetrack profile page, curves, Model and cam settings and put them in here.

I'm nearly sure there is a problem in the dimensions and position settings.

Stormrider

#34 01/08/2013 - 14h51

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Hi doveman,
I also think you have your ps3-eye zoomed in, or did you make bigger model?
When I compare your movie to my situation mine dots are more closer to each other when I sit at 1 metre distance of my camera.

doveman

#35 01/08/2013 - 20h25

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Steph @ 01/08/2013 - 10h41 a dit:
Hi,

please make screens of your Freetrack profile page, curves, Model and cam settings and put them in here.

I'm nearly sure there is a problem in the dimensions and position settings.

Hi,

Here you go. Camera settings in the video were gain and exposure 100%, White Balance R, G, B sliders 50%. Bear in mind, the second half of the video was done with everything except Yaw and Pitch disabled in Global.

Profile

Curves (Rotation)

Curves (Translation)

Model

doveman

#36 01/08/2013 - 20h26

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Stormrider @ 01/08/2013 - 12h51 a dit:
Hi doveman,
I also think you have your ps3-eye zoomed in, or did you make bigger model?
When I compare your movie to my situation mine dots are more closer to each other when I sit at 1 metre distance of my camera.

Hi, yeah it seems I did have it zoomed. Is that not recommended? I thought I read that it was somewhere but I could be wrong!

EDIT: Good call! It's much better with it zoomed out

However, it still moves in the X and Z axis when Yawing, so Yaw +48 gives X -130 and Z +140 and Yaw -48 gives X +180 and Z +200 (these values tend to change and be higher or lower on each test).

I tried reducing the Profile Sensitivity for those Axis from 1.5 to 1.0 but that hasn't made much, if any, difference.

Edited by doveman on 01/08/2013 at 22h00.

doveman

#37 03/08/2013 - 14h23

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Hmm, seems I still need some help with this!

It was working OK as I said but then I tried it again later and turning right was pitching up quite severely, making it impossible to use in-game. I don't understand why as I hadn't changed anything (obviously the exact position of my headphones on my head is hard to keep the same but I tried tilting them forwards and back a bit with no change).

Testing again this afternoon, I can turn left in FTNoIR for +90 Yaw with no or minimal Pitch, turning right for -60 Yaw (which is about as far as it will track) I get -20 Pitch and also +40 Z.

In Freetrack turning left for +90 Yaw gives me -10 Pitch, -400 Z, +120 Y and +60 Z, whilst turning right for -60 Yaw gives me -30 Pitch, +380 Z, +250 Y and +170 Z.

I'm using the same model settings in both programs, so I guess something else needs tweaking in Freetrack to reduce the unwanted movements. I'd rather use FreeTrack for now, for the relative translation and dynamic smoothing.

Another problem I have, not software related I don't think, is that when turning right it often has trouble keeping track of the top LED and when it loses tracking it causes the view in game to briefly show a different direction to where I'm looking (i.e. in DCS World I can be looking towards my six and it will flicker between that and the forward dash view briefly, like 0.25s.

Likewise I have to be careful not to tilt my head back/up too far or else it loses the top LED but as long as I make sure my headset is on so that the LED is straight on with the camera, it generally gives me enough room to tilt my head as much as is needed in-game, so that's not a big deal, although looking up and right can still be a problem.

It seems all three dots get weaker when I turn right for some reason. Perhaps this is normal and I just need to remove the IR filter from my PS3 Eye so that the dots start stronger and it doesn't matter when they get weaker?

doveman

#38 03/08/2013 - 15h15

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I tested with my clip again and that's pretty solid for yawing and doesn't generate unwanted pitcfh. For turning left for +80 Yaw, I get +110 X, +25 Y and -14 Z and turning right for -90 Yaw I get +120 X, -31 Y and 10 Z, which is obviously much better than with the cap-style arrangement although I think the X movement on Yawing probably should be lower.

I can pitch up OK, albeit with a tendency to yaw to the left a bit but I can't pitch down as the middle (R) LED disappears from the camera's view when I do. It's not just that it's losing tracking, as if I use CL-Eye test I can see it's disappearing from view.

I improved it a bit by moving the camera to the right, so that it's in-line with the clip but it still happens, like pitching down my head 1 degree but that comes back into view as I pitch it down further. Turning right with my head pitched down likewise hides the LED from view.

Partly this seems because the clip doesn't present the LEDs all in a straight vertical line but that just what happens with a straight clip mounted on my headphones. I'd have to make a curved clip to counteract this and I've not seen anyone else do this, so I don't think that's the answer.

This problem with the clip is one of the reasons I moved to a cap-style arrangement and I do need to work out the problems with both as even if I decide to use a clip, I need to build a cap for someone else.

Steph

#39 03/08/2013 - 16h28

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Setup your cam like this:

As you can see, the LEDs are not aligned exactly when I center my head, although the clip is well straight. That doesn't matter at all. Set your cam resolution on 320x240 and zoom to get approximately the same dimensions like above in the cam-window. The cam has to be in line with the clip.

Don't forget to set up the dimensions and positions. Mines are like this:

Put in yours.

Go on with this settings:
(Do not touch global settings, only profil-settings)

and curves:

With this settings you can turn up to 180° with stable view on any positions.
You need to accustom for the sensitivity of tracking. When you lose tracking with the sfh485 that means that you largely turn your head over +-30° which is not necessary. Do not turn your straight view further than 10cm out of the screen otherwise it gets uncomfortable for your eyes.
Thus the LEDs wont overlap either, and you don't lose tracking.
It takes a while to get a real good ingame precision, just a question of habituation.

You can turn off translations in the first time, making it easier in the beginning.

Edited by Steph on 03/08/2013 at 16h38.

doveman

#40 11/08/2013 - 14h05

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Thanks Steph. I'm going to make a sturdier clip and attach it differently to my headphones so it sits straighter and then I'll use your settings and hopefully it will be OK

Once I've done that, perhaps we can look at why my cap-style arrangement isn't working. I thought that would be easier than the clip as the LEDs are all fixed well in place and point straight at the camera but I must have something wrong for it to be having problems. I could move the two side LEDs in about 15mm by attaching them to the inside, rather than the outside, of the headband.

The other things I could do is move them up the headband, whilst keeping them on the outside otherwise they'd touch my head which would reduce the vertical distance from the top (R) point but I don't know if that would be likely to help or I could also move them backwards, so that they're further away from the cam and nearer to the R point in that direction.

Spitzfiebig

#41 12/08/2013 - 14h10

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Steph @ 03/08/2013 - 16h28 a dit:
Setup your cam like this:

Don't forget to set up the dimensions and positions. Mines are like this:

An den Einstellungen für die Modell-Position scheitere ich.
Habe den 3 Point-Clip genau nach dem Standardmass gebaut wie auf deinem Bild.

Der Hängt mit einem Ring an meinem linken Ohr (spiele ohne Headset).
Abstand zum Kopf beträgt ca. 2-3 mm. Die mittlere Diode ist genau auf Höhe der Ohr-Mitte und ca. 3 cm davor.
Aber was ich einstellen muss ist mir total unklar.
Muss ich jetzt von Kopfmitte nach aussen zur mittleren LED messen?

Posted Image

Darfst mir gerne die Maße für die Einstellungen mitteilen :-)

Ich sage schon mal Danke für deine Hilfe.

Gruss Heinz

Sorry for another Users, my English is to bad. I must write in German

Edited by Spitzfiebig on 13/08/2013 at 20h49.

Stormrider

#42 14/08/2013 - 17h00

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hi Spitzfiebig,
does this answers you question? This image comes out a reply Steph once gave.
My german writing is probably as bad as your english.

Spitzfiebig

#43 15/08/2013 - 09h09

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Hallo Stormrider,

yes all my Question are answers.
Thank you for this brillant Picture.

Greet Spitzfiebig.

Edited by Spitzfiebig on 15/08/2013 at 15h18.

Stormrider

#44 15/08/2013 - 14h06

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Hi Spitzfiebig,
for that picture you have to give Steph the credits.I just remembered that someone asked the same and he replyed to it.I just needed to search.

doveman

#45 15/09/2013 - 14h37

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Thanks Steph. I built a new clip to your dimensions (still from cardboard to test) and set it up as per your screenshots and it's tracking well now.

However, it seems overly sensitive in both DCS World and Arma and rotates the view right to the back of the plane and past there so that it rotates over 180 degrees with quite small movements of my head, so how can I tone it down and make it only turn about 120 degrees left or right?

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