FreeTrack Forum

Arrowhead @ 13/07/2009 - 05h02 a dit:

I see the fatheads over at BIS are bigger than I thought. What they fail to realize is that they are the ones who created this situation

We created it? I think you'll find it's more likely that Freetrack created it themselves by simply relying on piggybacking NP's API, then suddenly "oh noes NP stopped us using it".

When ArmA1 was complete and ArmA2 in progress, did the Freetrack devs get in touch with us to look into Freetrack support in ArmA2? Or did they stick their heads in the sand and hope that the TrackIR API used in ArmA2 would still allow Freetrack to piggyback onto it?

Arrowhead @ 13/07/2009 - 05h02 a dit:

the unprofessional characters calling the shots over at that company.

Unprofessional would be the unsolicited spreading of nocd cracks released by warez groups, IMO the freetrack community lost any kind of moral ground they might have though they had with that.

The threads were repeatedly closed due to a portion of the Freetrack community's apparent uncontrollable need to attack NP over their prices and business strategies, I made it clear from the get go this wasn't acceptable on our forums, we tried many different ways to allow the discussions to continue but our hand was forced.

Even now despite all the abuse thrown at me/us over the issue (including this thread here), I came up with a solution to allow the Freetrack community to voice their interest in Freetrack for ArmA2 and you come up with more excuses and attempts to endorse illegal actions, well like I said in various PMs to various people who contacted me, if you don't respect us why should we then respect you in return?

I'm sorry but if you think that it's unacceptable for me to criticise the sharing of warez cracks and to expect that the Freetrack devs would have respect for developers to stamp down on such actions then it's clear that we can never reach a common ground.

Bushlurker @ 13/07/2009 - 06h05 a dit:

I wouldn't even have known where to FIND a crack for a game... I learned though - I was forced to... We've all had to learn how to use cracks in order to continue to use our equipment and software... NOT a good situation...

legitimate buyers having to crack their legitimate games...

Forced? Having to? That's utter nonsense. I'm sorry but as much as I respect an individual's right to want to use the tracking/control method that they prefer, to say that you're "forced" to crack our game is nonsense, it's as valid an argument as stealing TrackIR from someone and saying "I was forced to so I could use headtracking in ArmA2".

Thanks for participating Placebo.

I meant no disrespect to BI by making TrackIR Fixer, I don't believe it violates any law, maybe you could correct me on this? I've added a disclaimer to the TrackIR Fixer post to make its legal use clearer.

"Some copy protection methods encrypt the executable, making it impossible to fix. This can be worked around by using a NoDVD executable which is not encrypted and can be fixed. This fixer does not condone illegal activities, it is intended only for use with legally owned software, in jurisdictions where it is legal to use a NoDVD with legally owned software."

Quarrion @ 13/07/2009 - 14h59 a dit:

I don't believe it violates any law, maybe you could correct me on this? I've added a disclaimer to the TrackIR Fixer post to make its legal use clearer.

How can it be legal? It circumvents our copy protection.

You can add any disclaimer you like but it doesn't change the specific actions themselves.

TrackIR Fixer does not circumvent any copy protection of any sort.

It ONLY disables the decryptor in the TrackIR code so that unencrypted data can be accepted. There's absolutely nothing illegal about it at all.

oh if it isn't our dear placebo, that locks all freetrack threads because BI moderators don't have time to moderate them. And I will quote you on this:

We have thousands of forum members, 100s of new posts/threads daily, it's simply not acceptable for one thread to be using up so much moderating time day after day after day.

But you have time to come here and try to feed us with your bullshits?

We created it? I think you'll find it's more likely that Freetrack created it themselves by simply relying on piggybacking NP's API, then suddenly "oh noes NP stopped us using it".

When ArmA1 was complete and ArmA2 in progress, did the Freetrack devs get in touch with us to look into Freetrack support in ArmA2? Or did they stick their heads in the sand and hope that the TrackIR API used in ArmA2 would still allow Freetrack to piggyback onto it?

Dear placebo, if you haven't read in all freetrack threads at your forums, FREETRACK USES MORE THEN TRACKIR SDK, IT AS IT'S OWN SDK AND WE TOLD YOU THAT IN BI FORUMS.

The freetrack sdk it's right here in this website, freetrack devs don't have to ask BI for nothing... we, your clients and community, did ask!

Did Saitek, logitech, or thrustmaster, asked for theirs joysticks to be supported in arma2???? Or the SDK is the same for all of them and not encrypted? Can you answer that placebo?

Unprofessional would be the unsolicited spreading of nocd cracks released by warez groups, IMO the freetrack community lost any kind of moral ground they might have though they had with that.

The threads were repeatedly closed due to a portion of the Freetrack community's apparent uncontrollable need to attack NP over their prices and business strategies, I made it clear from the get go this wasn't acceptable on our forums, we tried many different ways to allow the discussions to continue but our hand was forced.

Moral ground, but you are you to speak about moral ground?

Did you noticed that every freetrack thread in BI forums is locked? And is it because we are not allowed to discuss business practices from other companies?

I really doubt that, because I see everyone including you and BI devs, questioning the business practices, and bashing, every single company that does a bad review about ArmA2. Why is natural point so special in BI forums? Do you like to ride their piggyback?

Moral ground... I'll quote you again from BI forums:

Yes I said this can be discussed again, I did not say you can discuss Naturalpoint's business decisions, encryption of their API etc. etc. if Freetrack wants to be supported in games/apps then surely the onus is on them to provide everything that's required, if they can only provide a system/method that requires jerry rigging onto another company's software/API/IP or such then that should be something discussed directly with them.

You want everything that is required? So here you go: http://www.free-track.net/download.php?id=FreeTrack_V2.2

It's the same link that as been posted in BI forums and talked about hundreds of times, and is freetrack supported now? No.... and we gave you what you asked... So are you a man that we can trust in he's word?

Placebo, listen to me closely, Freetrack it's a legal software and it as it's own API and SDK, so why is it not working in ArmA2?

Are you going to keep your bullshit, or be a man of moral ground that complies with it's word, and make freetrack supported, as you told us?

PS: Maybe you can ask this to your friend vincent:

Why did a natural point employee, go to freetrack forums to post this:

NaturalPoint_Vincent a dit:

?

Freetrack created it themselves by simply relying on piggybacking NP's API, then suddenly "oh noes NP stopped us using it

Freetrack has multiple interface solutions including joystick emulation and even microsoft support - who knows, perhaps with more to come... how many times does this have to be said???
Microsoft for one wrote their own API for Flight Simulator X, which is called SimConnect. So it's free game for NaturalPoint, Freetrack and whoever else wants to write software benefitting from it. That's how it should be, not restricted to just one company with the aim of monopoly over the tracking technology - so much that they even remove support from the users of older TIR generations in order to boost their sales...
Did I forget that point? Older TrackIR users (I was one myself) have no means of using their legitimately purchased - and working - tracking hardware in Arma2... they WEREN'T "piggybacking" on anyone - yet they're in the same situation... Now they're all "crack users" too...
They didn't "steal anyone's TrackIR " - they bought their own - yet they're just as out in the cold as the Freetrack users..


The essence of freetrack - to a certain extent - IS their unprofessionalism... it's a FREE and ongoing software project - unlike NP it's NOT about making money...
I'm reminded of Kegetys' SoftTH project... essentially a software TripleHead2Go... it has a fairly significant userbase - try a search for "softTH" on youtube...
I contribute to the SoftTH forums occasionally and just about every week there's someone who appears saying "WOW! this is amazing - you could make MONEY on this"... They're generally ignored and they go away to greed out elsewhere, and then a while later Keg will appear - release another free update, remind us all once more his software is free to use as long as we DON'T make any money from it, and off he goes again...
Fortunately Kegetys is using directX as his "hook" - Matrox (the TH2G manufacturers) can't encode directX - even if they wanted to, so his softTH - in the best free license tradition - is a software alternative to the Uber-expensive commercial hardware solution...
Sound familiar???

Forced? Having to? That's utter nonsense

you buy a game
your headtracking system doesn't work with it (lets say you're a TrackIR3 user)...
Theres a patch (not crack, patch)
Sadly it requires an uncompressed .exe to work
The only one available also cracks the copy protection
Oh well - don't need that bit, but if its a choice between using your current system, or binning it and spending 4x the price of the game on new kit virtually identical to your current kit - no contest...

They're using a legitimate copy of their game, legitimately bought equipment, a patch so it works - an uncompressed .exe file so the patch works...
Does this mean they've "cracked" their game?? - well, unfortunately, indirectly, possibly...
Does this make them a pirate - using an illegal copy of their game? - No...

TrackIR Fixer does not circumvent any copy protection of any sort.

It ONLY disables the decryptor in the TrackIR code so that unencrypted data can be accepted. There's absolutely nothing illegal about it at all.

Listen to me carefully Placebo...
If there were ANY means - ANY integrated API via which Freetrack/early TIR,etc users could use headtracking in Arma2 you would never hear the word "NoCD" mentioned again - we don't want or even need a NoCD - we DO want and need a legitimate means to interface with Arma2...

Forced? Well - yes... but only indirectly by NP's encoding, Forced by BIS's inability or unwillingness to offer any kind of alternative to a monopolistic, encoded API - Yes..

Sadly, this is only the beginning of this situation.... Arma 2 is only the second game to become involved in this debacle... since NP aren't likely to change their policy - there will be more... the same arguments will take place and the same - or other - solutions will be found...
As I've said before I don't really play other games, so I'm not sure whats in the pipeline... as far as I'm aware, the previous game, BlackShark, went through all this nonsense too, the developers of that game, I believe, have now announced they will be including their own generic headtracking API - just like a generic joystick API, in a future patch... I bet they wish they'd just done that from the start.. or included Microsoft SimConnect, or the Freetrack API, or something... It's fairly certain software companies with forthcoming titles incorporating freelook capability are watching the current situation and trying to decide how best to avoid becomiing embroiled in such controversy and negative publicity... probably by including either generic or Microsoft headtracking API's as alternative choices from Day 1...
BIS could still do that - it's early days - they could actually lead the way - break the mould - be unique ... isn't that what they do best???

B

P.S.

PS: Maybe you can ask this to your friend vincent:

Why did a natural point employee, go to freetrack forums to post this:

NaturalPoint_Vincent a dit:

 

?

Good question... that sort of childishness could get you a warning or a ban - on the BIS forums.....

Jorge.PT @ 13/07/2009 - 16h27 a dit:

But you have time to come here and try to feed us with your bullshits?

Fine then, I get the message, last post here, enjoy your forums without unwelcome old me.

I thought this BI thread was funny. People openly bashing SecuROM with some describing it as 'the worst crap ever,' 'I disgust securom. I really hate it.' etc without so much as a warning from mods. Seems like a bit of a double standard.

Placebo @ 13/07/2009 - 18h33 a dit:

Jorge.PT @ 13/07/2009 - 16h27 a dit:

But you have time to come here and try to feed us with your bullshits?

Fine then, I get the message, last post here, enjoy your forums without unwelcome old me.

Bye Placebo, sorry if your feelings got hurt... We will miss your constructive posts and not full of lies, about freetrack.

Jorge.PT @ 13/07/2009 - 18h40 a dit:

Placebo @ 13/07/2009 - 18h33 a dit:

Jorge.PT @ 13/07/2009 - 16h27 a dit:

But you have time to come here and try to feed us with your bullshits?

Fine then, I get the message, last post here, enjoy your forums without unwelcome old me.

Bye Placebo, sorry if your feelings got hurt... We will miss your constructive posts and not full of lies, about freetrack.

Now why would you go and insult a member of BIS. These are the people we need to communicate with to get this resolved. I been talking with placebo for days now via PM and have been making some headway. He even came here to discuss it here BECAUSE I have been telling him that the free track community just wants this issue fixed. I understand some are bitter. But insulting the man when he comes here and we can maybe possibly get a fix helps NO ONE.

Read Bush's post, that is how you communicate with out being disrespectful.

My god  

I have to turn in into this discussion. I will not quote anyone because I will need to quote at least for page and half but it all is in this discussion about No DVD crack, FreeTrack support, BI and NP.

First morality and respect. Is it moral to use crack with original game? I will not answer on that question but will tell you my experience with ArmA1.
I was buying ArmA 1 on line version and when 1.08 patch was release I was already spend all my activations on every new version before. When I request new activations I didn’t get any answer at all. I was complaining to customer support on BI too and nothing.

After one whole week without participating in tournament I was slowed my problem by adding noDVD crack. After more than month with continuous complaining to retailer and BI I finally got answer and new activation.
So about morality of using crack with original game or about respect what Placebo talking about you make conclusion by yourself.

Now few more to Placebo who is disappointed me allot. Respect must going in two ways so if you expect more respect you have to show respect to other side too. In my case you newer show respect to me as customer who buy your product and to who you have obligation by law to provide it. Your side never don’t apologize for it to mee. And he wants respect. For what?

As conclusion on your discussion as third part because I’m not member of FT community but will like to have it in ArmA2 because of several reasons.

One of the reasons is that NP trying to achieve monopole on the market more than increasing production and reducing price of his much more then overpriced product who in production cost less than 20$ and for what price they selling us.

Other is that NP is have different price for others countries and in that way discriminating customers.
In Europe TrakIR is twice expensive than in US and in non EU countries even more. For example in my country I can’t buy TrakIR closes country where I can ordered is already 4th hand retailer so when I pay all necessary in the end TrakIR will cost me about 400$. Tell me now Placebo why should I buy something for 400$ when I can have alternative solution for 40$.

Supporting only NP, have to mention they breaking few laws of free market too, and not FT is really weird when it comes from guys like BI. Remember the reasons why you are break with Codmasters and what you are doing now. Placebo you now showing disrespect to this community who is part of all ArmA community and your game are great because of the community who BTW solved more than half your problems and bugs in game creating tone of stuff for this game for free. ArmA by default give us very little lousy campaign few SP mission few MP mission mostly coop and not proper PvP MP mod at all everything else is created by community even some PvP mod .

Conclusion we make this game better for free BI earned benefit from our free work and support and then they complain when we create something for our self just because they don’t provide us support as they have to do.

I know it is true that we use crack for slowed our problem but it is true you forced us too to do that my advice is to both side find quickly some mutual solution to benefit for all of us because I think ArmA community deserve it.

I’m trying to keep the facts and to focus this discussion in some constructive way not as just to find reason why support for FT will not be implemented in ArmA because there is none and you coming here Placebo just prows that this is not that small and we in ArmA community want it too.

My god    

Indeed - I actually thought we had the possibility of actual dialogue there...

I may not agree with Placebo on some of his opinions, decisions and even actions, but I'd defend his right to have them...

Dialogue and exchange of ideas makes things happen... pointless mudslinging prevents things happening...

My God!      

hotshot, in my country if someone comes to my house and starts spreading lies about me, then that person is not welcome.

We already tried to have this conversation where it belongs, not here in the freetrack forums, but in BI forums. Placebo locked every single thread without any plausible justification, so it's pretty clear that he's not interested in having it.

And even if he, for some heavenly reason, was interested in having it, starting he's first post with:

We created it? I think you'll find it's more likely that Freetrack created it themselves by simply relying on piggybacking NP's API, then suddenly "oh noes NP stopped us using it".

When ArmA1 was complete and ArmA2 in progress, did the Freetrack devs get in touch with us to look into Freetrack support in ArmA2? Or did they stick their heads in the sand and hope that the TrackIR API used in ArmA2 would still allow Freetrack to piggyback onto it?

Even after being informed numerous of times, that freetrack uses other interfaces besides trackir, and that there is a free API/SDK available since the last software version. It's really not the best way to start it...

He lacked the moral ground, to treat freetrack and it's users, with respect in it's own forums.

Maybe there is a cultural difference between us, but I don't tolerate narcissism.

EDIT: If you guys really think that the conversation is possible why don't you start it in BI forums?

Placebo already as what he asked for (the free track SDK) and there are 226 signatures in the petition, so I don't see any reason for BI not giving the support now...

And please, we all are man here not kids, if he gets offended when someone confronts him with facts and he's own words, then there is no space for a discussion.

I already tried to communicate with him various times, just to have threads locked... and when I was trying to start a conversation with who really matters (a BI dev, I don't remember he's name now) guess what that person did? Yes, you are right, he locked the thread!

@Jorge.PT

Thank you, thank you very much, you just annihilated any chance we had for a true freetrack support in Arma2, are you proud of yourself? The guy came here to talk to the freetrack community, he have opinions that maybe differ from mines and yours, but he took the effort to came here and see whats it all about, instead of trying to dialogue with him you jump on him and kick him out... you need to grow up, instead of showing him how nice and friendly the freetrack community can be and getting him interested in freetrack, you only showed him that this commnunity may be full of spoiled kids crying out loud in the mall when their moms dont want to buy that big toy...

I can only hope that he would not base his jugement on you, because if I was him, I would not be interested to deal with people like that... Now you can be sure that freetrack support had gone really really low on the To Do list for arma2, and probably even out of the list.

This is very sad.

Jorge.PT @ 13/07/2009 - 19h24 a dit:

hotshot, in my country if someone comes to my house and starts spreading lies about me, then that person is not welcome.

We already tried to have this conversation where it belongs, not here in the freetrack forums, but in BI forums. Placebo locked every single thread without any plausible justification, so it's pretty clear that he's not interested in having it.

And even if he, for some heavenly reason, was interested in having it, starting he's first post with:

We created it? I think you'll find it's more likely that Freetrack created it themselves by simply relying on piggybacking NP's API, then suddenly "oh noes NP stopped us using it".

When ArmA1 was complete and ArmA2 in progress, did the Freetrack devs get in touch with us to look into Freetrack support in ArmA2? Or did they stick their heads in the sand and hope that the TrackIR API used in ArmA2 would still allow Freetrack to piggyback onto it?

Even after being informed numerous of times, that freetrack uses other interfaces besides trackir, and that there is a free API/SDK avaible since the last software version. It's really not the best way to start it...

He lacked the moral ground, to treat freetrack and it's users, with respect in it's own forums.

Maybe there is a cultural difference between us, but I don't tolerate narcissism.

I don't care where you are from. WE the Free Track users need communication with BI. No matter your stance on Placebo.

If you choose to have opinion then leave it as YOUR opinion. Ruining what little chance we have because of your view point is a slap in the face to this community.

The bottom line is he took time out his day to come to this forum, sign up, and start a dialog. That in itself is head way. Him coming here, meeting the members, etc can only better Free Track. But to insult him and drive him away.......How does that help anything???????